I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see things in this matter even close to the same as you regarding how themes and plugins should be managed on community sites. I think that denying premium themes access to the features that have been implemented in WordPress though not allowing them to put their theme on WordPress.org's plugin and theme repositories is a bad thing. I think that the fact that Automattic makes HUGE money on WordPress, and works on ways to limit or deny other contributors the same opportunities is horrible. I agree with many others that a company that is generating profit shouldn't be leading an open source community because they will always make movements to secure their profits. And this goes double for a company that is partially supported by VC money.
This is just my two cents that could be part of a much longer, and well thought out post on this topic. You bring up some great points, but I think you've totally avoided the business issues in this conversation which are only important because they are the motivations behind the movements that Automattic is taking with the company and as such, the project and software.
Andrew Rickmann
· 1 year ago
Interesting. I have not avoided those issues I just think I see a very clear separation between Automattic and WordPress.org; although, I have argued in the past that there is a conflict of interest, even if they don't act on it, because of this kind of thing. Interestingly few people agreed with me then.
I honestly think that everything that has happened with the repository has been because a member of the community (who just happens to be employed, or own, Automattic) thinks it is genuinely in the best interests of the community. I also think that Automattic is suggesting people do exactly as they do, that is, give away the code for free and charge for services.
As you say though we can agree to disagree. I don't feel particularly strongly about this issue as I am a big fan of most of the premium theme authors and personally find the repository useless, but I do feel that this issue has really lacked a considered and unemotional view. Hence why I tried to produce it.
I understand Jeff is interviewing Matt on WordPress Weekly Tomorrow though, so we can see what he says.
Monika
· 1 year ago
Auttomatic is the business behind WordPress - I can't understand why one business is better than another. wordpress.com is a big business market place - Matt is the chief of both - I'm a webdesigner- and I'm a WP professional woman- I earn money with WP - not so much as Auttomatic but I do ;) -
in your logic no webdesigner is allowed to link back to its website - if he spent a WP Theme back to the WP community. in your logic no link from wordpress.org to wordpress.com - and so on..
GPL doesn't mean : you are not allowed to earn money - but this days I have to realized : big business yes - small business no ...
my english isn't the best , and if I hear Matt I can't understand him very well - (british english is much better to understand :-)) so I have to wait for translation - thanks for the discussion
Andrew Rickmann
· 1 year ago
The problem with links is that they are now worth something. There needs to be a line somewhere. The question is where?
For example, is it OK for a web designer to link back to their site, it should be, but then why not let a gambling website release a theme with links back to their website? is that still OK? How about adult sites? As long as they produced the theme, or paid for it to be produced by someone else, there isn't really a difference. But I would not like the second two.
Nathan Rice
· 1 year ago
Andrew, I actually think you've got some great ideas here. Assuming things are the way we all perceive them to be, I think you've suggested some good compromises.
However, I agree with David ... I think there is an inherent conflict of interest between WP.org and Automattic. Automattic is a business with VC investments. They have to make profits. Matt runs Automattic. Matt also runs (evidently unilaterally) WordPress.org and the WordPress project. I'm not saying that he does this, but it would make perfect sense for him to make decisions for WP.org that benefit Automattic and WP.com. I'm not saying he's ever done that. I'm just saying the temptation is there, and because the temptation is there, we can't just assume that he won't give in.
For his sake, and for the sake of the community, he really shouldn't have that much power.
Andrew Rickmann
· 1 year ago
Nathan, you have summed up my thoughts on Automattic quite nicely there. There is a conflict of interest, I complete agree with that, but, on this particular occasion I don't see what benefit Automattic would get from removing themes from the community repository. That is why I think this is genuinely a community driven thing, even though a lot of people disagree.
Taking the psychological theory of community though you can argue that he has that much power because he has contributed the most.
Nathan Rice
· 1 year ago
Again, I'm not saying this is a fact. But it is a possible scenario in which Automattic could benefit from this move.
It's a competitive market. And in this competitive market, WordPress.com needs to take advantage of people who are either lazy, or web-illiterate. That's their target audience. I can say that with confidence because both my mother and my wife have WordPress.com blogs, and neither of them have enough know-how to run a self-hosted WP blog.
However, premium theme developers are aiming to change that. We make extremely easy to use themes, offer support all along the way, and even help people find hosting, install WordPress, and get their theme activated.
WordPress.com and Premium theme developers rely on significant numbers of the same target audience. If the self-hosted version of WordPress becomes more attractive than the hosted alternative, the WordPress.com loses market share, which would be unacceptable to the Automattic investors.
Bottom line ... Premium theme developers make the self-hosted version of WordPress more attractive to novice users. And that is a threat to the WordPress.com business model. On the flip-side, if premium themes were GPL, WordPress.com could take and use them on WordPress.com, giving WordPress.com the advantage (because users don't have to pay for hosting).
Again, I'm not saying this is the motivation behind the move. I'm just saying it's one possible scenario where the conflict of interest could manifest itself.
Monika
· 1 year ago
"............. I don't see what benefit Automattic would get from removing themes from the community repository"
1idea ..a market place for wp themes - xyz% to Auttomatic /theme
..it is thinkable ..
Andrew Rickmann
· 1 year ago
Well, there are clearly lots of ways in which a conflict of interest could be manifested, but, I think, of all the ideas I have heard, that there are as many reasons if not more why they would not work or would not be practical, as there are reasons why there would be a benefit.
I will need to see something very persuasive to see where there are significant benefits to Automattic messing with the WordPress community.
Wayne Smallman
· 1 year ago
"Capitalism will decide how much is fair."
Ultimately, that's the great leveler. No matter what the premium content producer thinks they can charge, the market decides, because if they're charging too much, the market won't buy, and if what they're offering is mostly indistinguishable from what's free, very few will buy.
I've written a Plugin (Socialize Me!) and I've written an ebook, both of which are free. However, my reimbursement has been and continues to be the exposure my skills and expertise enjoy as a result of people using and sharing my products, which is an extension of my knowledge.
At some point, your knowledge is compensated further by people recognizing those talents and choosing engage with you in a project they feel your knowledge and know-how will be suited to.
Thaya Kareeson
· 1 year ago
Great analytical writeup Andrew. I enjoy your "Question five" section as I never thought about the WordPress community in this way before.
When I first started developing WordPress plugins out of my free time, I gave them away for free. As support requests increased, my free time got eaten up so quickly that I started losing sleep to support the plugins. By then I had to choice but to add donation options and backlinks to my site to feel properly compensated. Who knows what will happen if support becomes too heavy of a burden in the future? Maybe I need to start a members-only forum that lets me attend to paying users' needs before free users.
I guess what I'm saying is that, you're dead-on right about the definition of the community. I feel like I've been adhering to your guidelines naturally without even thinking about it. But as you said, in the real world, nothing stops people from just jumping to reap all the rewards (cost per download, support fees, back links, entry in repository) before they pay their dues.
ringmaster
· 1 year ago
"I think premium theme authors, [...] deserve to be compensated for that effort above and beyond the content that the community provides"
I agree completely, and I largely agree with many of your other impressions. It's simply a shame that premium theme developers chose to participate in a community where the necessary licensing of their themes would not only exclude them from profit in the way they typically seek it, but exclude them from being listed due to policies in how the wordpress.org site is run.
Whether it's in the best interest for the community or not might factor into the decision, but ultimately what is allowed in the repository should ultimately be decided by the site owner, not the community. What would be ideal is if the community owned the site and, perhaps more importantly, the brand, which it most certainly does not. In either case, I'd still argue that omitting non-GPL plugins/themes from the repo is good for the project. Leading by example is always best.
Improving The Web
· 1 year ago
They are free to omit them, but in the case of plugins, I would really like it so that even plugins that aren't in the plugin repository could benefit from the automatic upgrading.
That's a huuge disadvantage for these types of plugins.
Jamie
· 1 year ago
The way the world is going, I think changing peoples approach to "profit in the way they typically seek it" is a very good thing. While I'm not suggesting premium theme developers are anywhere on par with insurance companies, health care R&D drug labs or patent trolls, it is possible to build a sustainable business model based around Wordpress in which you can still support the open source ideals that allowed Wordpress to grow in the first place.
Jamie
· 1 year ago
"I think that premium theme authors are a valued part of the community and so should be permitted advertising space in order to advertise to the community, but, not as part of any product that is provided through the community, and clearly marked." I agree with this with the caveat that the licensing which the themes are sold under is agreeable to the GPL licensing of the product on which they are a derivative of. You might push that further to suggest that anyone is free to use Wordpress to practice capitalism as long as they are willing to acknolwedge they are benefitting from the socialistic tendencies on which it is based.
wildhunt
· 11 months ago
Your argument would hold stake, if there were charges or mandatory links back to wp.org or Automattic involved in WordPress. There aren't. WP demonstrates, rather clearly, that an Open Source project can be financially successful without charging for the code involved or including mandatory links.
Automattic's immediate success as a Open Source centered business stems from its established ability to create valuable software. Having proven this, business is attracted not through mandatory links or a direct revenue stream, but through a third channel - Open Source as a means of portfolio. I do believe, that the benefits of exposure to hundreds of thousands of potential users via the Plugin repository alone, is worth its pageviews in gold in this scenario, giving authors not only a huge boost by open association with a wildly successful project, but also a means to show openly their craftsmanship. Revenue - and I know this to be the case in my business - can be created from this placement and association without using my users as link bait providers or charging for my Open Source work directly.
t31os
· 10 months ago
Spot on!....
Ajay
· 11 months ago
@Improving the Web, I don't see how it will be possible. You need a single place to check for updates.
Plugin authors should add their plugins to the repository.
Chris J. Davis
· 11 months ago
It certainly is possible. Habari, the project I am involved with, has built an update/installation method that isn't tied to any one point. Every Linux distro follows the same path. There is nothing technologically based that stops this from working in the WordPress space.
Nothing.
Andrew Rickmann
· 11 months ago
I am sure I read that someone was writing a plugin to allow plugins to specify an update location for precisely this reason.
wildhunt
· 11 months ago
How about an apt/dpkg based upgrade path? I am using something like this locally for my own Drupal and Wordpress installs, and it works like a charm. I don't think it'd be too much of a hassle expanding it and writing a web frontend for it.
All Comments
This is just my two cents that could be part of a much longer, and well thought out post on this topic. You bring up some great points, but I think you've totally avoided the business issues in this conversation which are only important because they are the motivations behind the movements that Automattic is taking with the company and as such, the project and software.
I honestly think that everything that has happened with the repository has been because a member of the community (who just happens to be employed, or own, Automattic) thinks it is genuinely in the best interests of the community. I also think that Automattic is suggesting people do exactly as they do, that is, give away the code for free and charge for services.
As you say though we can agree to disagree. I don't feel particularly strongly about this issue as I am a big fan of most of the premium theme authors and personally find the repository useless, but I do feel that this issue has really lacked a considered and unemotional view. Hence why I tried to produce it.
I understand Jeff is interviewing Matt on WordPress Weekly Tomorrow though, so we can see what he says.
in your logic no webdesigner is allowed to link back to its website - if he spent a WP Theme back to the WP community.
in your logic no link from wordpress.org to wordpress.com - and so on..
GPL doesn't mean : you are not allowed to earn money - but this days I have to realized : big business yes - small business no ...
my english isn't the best , and if I hear Matt I can't understand him very well - (british english is much better to understand :-))
so I have to wait for translation - thanks for the discussion
For example, is it OK for a web designer to link back to their site, it should be, but then why not let a gambling website release a theme with links back to their website? is that still OK? How about adult sites? As long as they produced the theme, or paid for it to be produced by someone else, there isn't really a difference. But I would not like the second two.
I actually think you've got some great ideas here. Assuming things are the way we all perceive them to be, I think you've suggested some good compromises.
However, I agree with David ... I think there is an inherent conflict of interest between WP.org and Automattic. Automattic is a business with VC investments. They have to make profits. Matt runs Automattic. Matt also runs (evidently unilaterally) WordPress.org and the WordPress project. I'm not saying that he does this, but it would make perfect sense for him to make decisions for WP.org that benefit Automattic and WP.com. I'm not saying he's ever done that. I'm just saying the temptation is there, and because the temptation is there, we can't just assume that he won't give in.
For his sake, and for the sake of the community, he really shouldn't have that much power.
Taking the psychological theory of community though you can argue that he has that much power because he has contributed the most.
It's a competitive market. And in this competitive market, WordPress.com needs to take advantage of people who are either lazy, or web-illiterate. That's their target audience. I can say that with confidence because both my mother and my wife have WordPress.com blogs, and neither of them have enough know-how to run a self-hosted WP blog.
However, premium theme developers are aiming to change that. We make extremely easy to use themes, offer support all along the way, and even help people find hosting, install WordPress, and get their theme activated.
WordPress.com and Premium theme developers rely on significant numbers of the same target audience. If the self-hosted version of WordPress becomes more attractive than the hosted alternative, the WordPress.com loses market share, which would be unacceptable to the Automattic investors.
Bottom line ... Premium theme developers make the self-hosted version of WordPress more attractive to novice users. And that is a threat to the WordPress.com business model. On the flip-side, if premium themes were GPL, WordPress.com could take and use them on WordPress.com, giving WordPress.com the advantage (because users don't have to pay for hosting).
Again, I'm not saying this is the motivation behind the move. I'm just saying it's one possible scenario where the conflict of interest could manifest itself.
1idea ..a market place for wp themes - xyz% to Auttomatic /theme
..it is thinkable ..
I will need to see something very persuasive to see where there are significant benefits to Automattic messing with the WordPress community.
Ultimately, that's the great leveler. No matter what the premium content producer thinks they can charge, the market decides, because if they're charging too much, the market won't buy, and if what they're offering is mostly indistinguishable from what's free, very few will buy.
I've written a Plugin (Socialize Me!) and I've written an ebook, both of which are free. However, my reimbursement has been and continues to be the exposure my skills and expertise enjoy as a result of people using and sharing my products, which is an extension of my knowledge.
At some point, your knowledge is compensated further by people recognizing those talents and choosing engage with you in a project they feel your knowledge and know-how will be suited to.
When I first started developing WordPress plugins out of my free time, I gave them away for free. As support requests increased, my free time got eaten up so quickly that I started losing sleep to support the plugins. By then I had to choice but to add donation options and backlinks to my site to feel properly compensated. Who knows what will happen if support becomes too heavy of a burden in the future? Maybe I need to start a members-only forum that lets me attend to paying users' needs before free users.
I guess what I'm saying is that, you're dead-on right about the definition of the community. I feel like I've been adhering to your guidelines naturally without even thinking about it. But as you said, in the real world, nothing stops people from just jumping to reap all the rewards (cost per download, support fees, back links, entry in repository) before they pay their dues.
I agree completely, and I largely agree with many of your other impressions. It's simply a shame that premium theme developers chose to participate in a community where the necessary licensing of their themes would not only exclude them from profit in the way they typically seek it, but exclude them from being listed due to policies in how the wordpress.org site is run.
Whether it's in the best interest for the community or not might factor into the decision, but ultimately what is allowed in the repository should ultimately be decided by the site owner, not the community. What would be ideal is if the community owned the site and, perhaps more importantly, the brand, which it most certainly does not. In either case, I'd still argue that omitting non-GPL plugins/themes from the repo is good for the project. Leading by example is always best.
That's a huuge disadvantage for these types of plugins.
Automattic's immediate success as a Open Source centered business stems from its established ability to create valuable software. Having proven this, business is attracted not through mandatory links or a direct revenue stream, but through a third channel - Open Source as a means of portfolio. I do believe, that the benefits of exposure to hundreds of thousands of potential users via the Plugin repository alone, is worth its pageviews in gold in this scenario, giving authors not only a huge boost by open association with a wildly successful project, but also a means to show openly their craftsmanship. Revenue - and I know this to be the case in my business - can be created from this placement and association without using my users as link bait providers or charging for my Open Source work directly.
I don't see how it will be possible. You need a single place to check for updates.
Plugin authors should add their plugins to the repository.
Nothing.