Fun with WordPress - Latest Comments in Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

home repairs — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:56:30 -0000

Atompub is really available or not? But i think this project will be more useful for the normal people to understand..Always Google rocks and leave their marks in every field..

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Andrew Rickmann — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:26:22 -0000

I must admit that I am more include to start with a blank sheet of xml but I will investigate Atom and AtomPub further to see if it is easier to do it that way. What is in my mind is that the extensions will mean it is no longer compatible with existing importers, so I wonder how beneficial it would really be. Plugins would still need to be built.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Andrew Rickmann — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:07:53 -0000

While I can see the benefits I am going to avoid feature creep. My key goal is to do something very very simple that just works for most ordinary users. If someone wants to write a forum plugin that pulls the data from the format then that is great, but I won't be addressing anything specific for forums.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Ryan — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:40:44 -0000

Great idea. Setting up a system which is compatible with forums as well would be good. So you could convert your blog posts with comments to forum topics with replies and vice versa. In fact forums need a universal system more so than blogs IMO.

Could the existing WordPress system be adapted for this? Couldn't you just make a Habari plugin which does the same thing as the built in WordPress one?

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

michaeltwofish — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:29:04 -0000

There may also be problems maintaining timestamps, because an AtomPub server can choose to change or ignore things like the client-supplied time for 'updated'.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

michaeltwofish — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:15:02 -0000

No, because Atom, by default, doesn't encode everything that can be expressed in each blogging platform. Owen makes a good example, Habari's metadata for posts and comments. But it does encode information about authors and content and categories (which Habari uses as tags) and much more. In theory, you could use an AtomPub client to pull down all your posts from your old blog (export) and simply POST them to your new blog (import). I don't know if there are clients that support that at the moment, however. (Aside, PUT is for editing, POST is for creating.)

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Andrew Rickmann — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:44:03 -0000

Is there a reason why Atom isn't already used as a default format? If you can get information from a blog and put that information into another then isn't the work already done? Isn't that the universal format?

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

ringmaster — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:33:24 -0000

I also don't understand WXR extending RSS. Extending Atom makes more sense because it's transactional -- if you HTTP GET an Atom document, make changes to it and then POST it back to the same URL (with the proper credentials) it should cause the system to update with those changes. That's a nice feature. It uses actual HTTP verbs. Imagine an export format that also allowed for that, but could be used for author data and other site metadata. That's actually one thing that we were thinking of doing with Habari early on; building the admin as an Atom front-end that worked transactionally with any number of compatible back-ends.

Also a benefit of using an existing format is that there are a lot of people working on the standard, and extending it is more trivial than building something from scratch. Take a look at the work that went into the Atom spec to get an idea of what it takes to build something that will work just that well.

Simple would be nice, although in that case I'd emphasize the need to have someplace to collaborate on how extensions to that simple baseline work. You definitely don't want it to be difficult for developers from any platform to join the effort and exchange ideas.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Andrew Rickmann — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:27:28 -0000

I will take a look at it. My main requirement is that it just works and is really simple for normal people to understand. I don't really know anything about AtomPub as I have never had cause to use it.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Andrew Rickmann — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:21:47 -0000

Thanks Owen. There is much to think about there. My first thought was that it should just use plain XML. I never really understood why WXR should extend RSS instead of just being an XML file with the necessary data in it.

I think it is very possible to make it very complicated and most of all I want to keep it simple and achieve the basics. If it really needs extending beyond that it can be.

As for licensing, I plan to just let anyone do whatever they want with it.

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

Heiner — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:26:25 -0000

Just a little side note, the garden path evidently is the path to glory ;-)

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

michaeltwofish — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:24:27 -0000

I think AtomPub is a good place to start, as most (all?) platforms already have support for at least Atom syndication, it's an open, documented standard, the Atom community is helpful and open, it's extensible, and has been successfully extended. It may not be perfect, but starting again with something else is very much likely to end up with something a whole lot worse.

(The draft element allows the client to request that a resource be made publicly visible (the default) or not. I suspect you know this, however, so perhaps we'll discuss that out of band.)

Re: Google converters: garden path or path to glory?

ringmaster — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:45:18 -0000

Well that's always been the problem with efforts like these before. Someone steps up and says they want interchange and selects one or two formats and is done.

I'm not suggesting that's the extent of your approach, but my major complaint in a discussion with one of the BlogML developers recently was that their .net world is so insular, they've not made any inroads with the likes of the 95% share OSS blog market. Did it never occur to them to publish in a clear, obvious, findable location the schema for their format? I guess not.

Besides that, it IS hard. Looking at the BlogML spec (when you're able to locate it), it's got a few things that make sense, and some stuff that could use revision. For example, in all of the blog platforms I know, comments and trackbacks are the same core thing, but of different types. Perhaps this is different for the .net language blog softwares. It seems to me that there is no need for first-order elements for both of these comment types. Also, the category system in the format wouldn't seem to support anything but the most rudimentary systems before needing completely replaced to house tag or taxonomy information.

What would also be helpful for BlogML, as would for any universal format, is a document describing what to do if your blog supports data that is not covered by the format. Habari, for example, stores open-ended metadata about comments and users. This isn't standard among blog software. So how should that be acounted for in the export format? Is there a place to publish and collaborate on extensions to the base format? Perhaps by slightly tweaking what extension your platform requires, you can gain two other platforms in the bargain, rather than have two additional, incompatible export format extensions and a reason for Google Converters to exist at all.

Being more open about the format would be useful, too. There were a couple of interchange formats that came and went without ever being used because the author wanted to retain some kind of rights over the process. If you're developing an interchange format between open source platforms, expect them to want it to be open, both in documentation and in compatible licensing. There's nothing like documenting a useful interchange format by writing a proprietary-licensed library to implement it that none of your target platforms can embed.

As far as the format itself, it should build on existing standards. This is one place where WXR tries and fails, in that it's kind of RSS, but it's not technically valid XML, which paradoxically RSS has to be. Atom might be a good place to start, although its usefulness in blogging has been somewhat abstracted out. That draft element still bugs me. What the heck does it MEAN? Maybe RDF? Maybe just valid XML would be good.